Mojo becoming a paid program?

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Rob
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Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:59 am

I'm thinking pretty seriously of making Mojo a paid program. Before I do anything, I'm describing the plan here so people can make suggestions or try to talk me out of it.

People will still be able to download Mojo for free. The free version will work normally except for one thing: every copy of DAOC that it starts will run for only a short time.

To get unlimited Mojo, you'll have to pay for a subscription. A single subscription will allow you to run Mojo on as many PCs as you want simultaneously as long as the PCs connect to the Internet through the same IP address.

You'll be able to use your subscription from different IP addresses, but not at the same time. For example, you can use it at work, then go home, then use it at home. But a single subscription can't be used simutaneously from work and from home.

Prices:

1 month: $4.99
3 months: $12:49 (save 16%)
6 months: $19.99 (save 33%)
12 months: $29.99 (save 50%)

One problem with this plan is that some of Mojo's features don't work or work poorly because I never finished them. As long as the program was free there was no legal problem with this but that changes when I start taking money.

The simplest way to solve the problem would be to remove the flaky features before I start accepting payment.
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Siambra
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Siambra » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 am

I love Mojo so I'd pay :)

Tubben
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Tubben » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:43 am

I would pay for Mojo, if i could create buttons to click, to send commands to different clients.

I wonder why you dont write an program which works for every MMO. Hotkeynet is already great. I dont think a logparser, or spellcrafter is needed.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:08 am

Tubben wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:43 am
I would pay for Mojo, if i could create buttons to click, to send commands to different clients.
As you probably know, you can make that kind of button with HotkeyNet, so I'm puzzled. You say HotkeyNet is great, so why not just use HotkeyNet for free instead of paying for Mojo? (For reasons I'll explain below, I think Mojo works much better than HotkeyNet. I wrote both programs.)
Tubben wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:43 am
I wonder why you dont write an program which works for every MMO. Hotkeynet is already great.
I've tried to do that twice, first when I wrote HotkeyNet and the second time when I started Mojo which was originally intended to be for all MMOs.

I learned from HotkeyNet that it's very difficult to make a single program send keystrokes properly to all MMOs.

Here are some of the problems with HotkeyNet:
  • HKN can't stop DAOC from seeing alt, shift, and control when they are pressed on the keyboard so you can't create hotkeys with HKN that (1) get triggered with modifiers but (2) send keystrokes without modifiers.
  • With HotkeyNet, toons get interrupted and knocked off when they are in the background and you press certain keys. This doesn't happen with Mojo.
  • HotkeyNet can't send movement hotkeys.
  • Hotkeynet can't stop background toons from seeing the game's own movement keys.
HotkeyNet can't do these things but Mojo does them perfectly.

The reason Mojo can do these things and HotkeyNet cannot is that HKN was written for all MMOs but Mojo was written specifically for DAOC. (Originally I started Mojo for all MMOs but gave up and made it specifically for DAOC).

That's one reason why it's very difficult to write a single multiboxing program that works well for MMOs in general. Another reason is that a huge fraction of the program is concerned with teams, servers, settings, etc., and those things vary from one game to another.
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Tubben
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Tubben » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Thank you for the long answer.

I wonder if you could do an general, plugin (MMO Plugin) driven program.

Like Hotkeynet with an "DAOC 'Mojo' Plugin", an "WoW Plugin" and so on.

Would be probably more or less like Inner space / ISBoxer.

That way you could use your hard work for upcomming MMO's, while still supporting old MMOs - since you dont have that much to do on your "old" plugins.

burningstave
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by burningstave » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:51 pm

As much as I love Mojo I wouldn't be able to justify spending money on a reoccurring subscription service to make the logging in process of a 17 year old game easier. I could see donating at some point, but I would unfortunately have to walk away if it becomes a paid program.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:23 pm

Tubben wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:38 pm
I wonder if you could do an general, plugin (MMO Plugin) driven program.

Like Hotkeynet with an "DAOC 'Mojo' Plugin", an "WoW Plugin" and so on.
I don't think plugins would save me any work. Let me try to explain why.

There's always going to be some code that all the games use. Let's call that shared code. There will also be some code that is different for each game. Let's call that game-specific code.

No matter what i do, I have to write all that code.

The only thing that changes is the time and place at which the two kinds of code get linked. With plugins, they get linked on the user's computer. With standalone programs, they get linked on my PC at build time.

The main question for me is, "Can the game-specific code share the same UI?" If they can use a single UI, then I can write one UI and the plugins plug into it. But if they can't, then a plug-in architecture doesn't make a lot of sense. And I think maybe in this case they can't or they can't easily. It might be a huge pain in the neck trying to jam these different games into a single UI.
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Sitruc
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Sitruc » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:36 pm

Well Rob I got to say I like using Mojo, I liked that you were available on Discord when I played on Geharis more. However this is a post to convince you to not make it a subscription, although I know the draw of a residual income. I will offer you another line of thinking. How about a donation program? You may or may not be able to make this happen but here goes. A one time donation of $25.00 to keep what version you have now. Another version comes out and has features that others want/works better then a donation of $5 or $10 to get the download/upgrade. That could be the residual part. Anyways I would have to walk away also if it goes subscription, even in the game I have GTC's from others selling gear and such being a disabled vet on a fixed income. I would not be against donating and just keeping the version you have now without any upgrades at this time. If you had an upgrade in the future that I really really really wanted, I would pay to get that feature/upgrade. Thank you for the hard work you do on this program.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks a lot Sitruc for taking time to tell me your ideas. I'm glad you're using the program and I'd feel bad if you have to stop using it, not only because you're a disabled vet and but also because you're a nice guy.

I want to make sure I understand you because I'm a little puzzled by the word "donation."

To me "donation" means, "Payment is voluntary. Customers give if they want but they don't have to." Mojo has always had that. There's a donation button on the program right now. It's been there for nine years. During that time I did the equivalent of about a year's work on Mojo and less than one thousand dollars was donated. A tiny handful of people donated and everyone else used it for free. So donations (in the sense that I use the word) don't begin to pay me what the work was worth.

If I understand you right, you're saying, "If people want to keep using the current version, they have to pay $25 for it. That gives them a permanent license for it. Later, in the future, if you publish upgrades, they'll have to pay a small additional amount to get the same kind of permanent license for the upgrade."

Is that what you mean? There's nothing voluntary about that, right? If they don't pay $25 they won't be able to use the program?

Do I understand you?
Thank you for the hard work you do on this program.
You're welcome. And thanks for saying thanks. :)
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Sitruc
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Sitruc » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:27 am

If I understand you right, you're saying, "If people want to keep using the current version, they have to pay $25 for it. That gives them a permanent license for it. Later, in the future, if you publish upgrades, they'll have to pay a small additional amount to get the same kind of permanent license for the upgrade."
Yes, sorry for the poor choice of words and thank you for clarifying it for me, my idea was there just didn't make it out as well as you put it. All those numbers are hypothetical of course, it's your product and you can make those numbers what you like. I thought maybe a one time "license" fee for the current version might be more palatable to most than a subscription.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:27 am

Sitruc wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:27 am
I thought maybe a one time "license" fee for the current version might be more palatable to most than a subscription.
I think you're right. People would like it a lot better if they pay money once and can use Mojo forever.

Sorry if my use of the word "license" was unclear. I'm so used to the word that I forget it's legal jargon. When people sell software what they really sell is a license. Even when people totally 100% completely give away software, they give an open-source license. Etc.

I like the other part of your idea too -- additional payments in the future for new features -- so much that I'd like to do it in the past and not just the future. :) I'm joking but here's what I mean.

There could be two different versions of Mojo with different features and different prices. The first version could be "Mojo Single" for people that run just one DAOC account. It doesn't have a Team tab or a "PCs with Mojo" tab. It doesn't have multiboxing scripts. It can't interact with copies of Mojo on other PCs.

The second version would be "Mojo Multi" for multiboxers. It has everything that's in Mojo Single plus a Team tab, PCs with Mojo tab, multiboxing scripts, and the ability for each copy of Mojo to talk to and control Mojos on other PCs.

There would also be a free trial version with all features except it's limited to running DAOC for about 30 minutes. Or maybe two trial versions, one for Single and one for Multi.

For prices, I'm thinking maybe $19.99 for Mojo S and $49.99 for Mojo M. Pay once, use it forever.
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Sitruc
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Sitruc » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:32 pm

I think your on to something there with versions of Mojo. I'll let you know how I use it in a very simple way. When I run two accounts on the same computer, i.e. a bot, I still have the actions of pressing a single key do a function on both of the accounts. That's pretty much it, I don't pretend to run a team, just two is as many as I've ran before. I usually have 4 keys I use between the accounts, 1 2 3 & 4, other than that can't say I use much else. Not that I wouldn't but I do find Mojo easy for logging in my favorite toons and adjusting my gamma <dark screens suck>. I run easy simple scripts, but I know that Mojo is a power house program that can do much more, I just don't comprehend all the ways to use it to run a team. That being said I would pay $19.99 for a license. Then if you did a, "hand holding" for us that don't catch on as quickly to watch over and over, video series teaching people how to create scripts for the games they use, that might be something to pay an extra $10 for a series. Food for thought, extra content nets extra money. You'll be a youtube star before we're done :P

DaocRath
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by DaocRath » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Rob

First of all... thanks for finally adding an icon lol

I have been using Mojo for a few years. Its been so long I have lost track as I have been an avid daoc player since it came out. I do love the conveniences that Mojo provides and all the hard work you have put into keeping it compatible. I also on occasion read and sometimes comment on the forum here. I am open to a one time fee for a current version and maybe small fee's for any large updates that were above and beyond updating mojo to keep it working with any daoc patch but a monthly fee I would just return to the old way of loggin in without MOJO. As it is I have closed down my extra accounts and only keep 2 active for most of the year now. I will keep playing daoc until they turn the lights off at the server farm but it is a very old game and its graphics/graphics engine is in need of a serious overhaul/update.

I know many people run multiple computers.... I would be against having to pay a fee for each computer to run Mojo, but I would be ok with a limit of so many registered computers per account activation/lic. I do not always play on my desktops and when I am mobile I use my laptops. I have even been known to sneak daoc onto other family members computers during long holiday visits. I do run more then one account per computer sometimes but do not use all the bells and whistles of a true multiboxer. I would be ok with a one time fee of $20-$30 to use MOJO with my DAOC but I think $50 would be pushing it by about $20-25 and I would just return to the old way of dual logging/2 per computer.

I think its awesome that you have created such a cool program and have kept it going for so long with so little financial incentive to do so, other then your love of the game and coding. I also understand that it takes time and effort to keep this program updated. If its about money... have you looked into seeing if EA would be interested in purchasing Mojo to integrate it into DAOC's login?

DaocRath
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by DaocRath » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:33 pm

That last paragraph I didnt mean you maybe hurting for money I just meant if you were looking to make money on your program, maybe they would be interested in integrating it into the game software as they keep saying they are always trying to improve the gaming experience for its player base and maybe you can make some big cash on it and not have to deal with any more updates anymore.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:46 am

Sitruc wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:32 pm
I usually have 4 keys I use between the accounts, 1 2 3 & 4, other than that can't say I use much else.
From my point of view as the author of two multiboxing programs this is a pretty big thing because Mythic put a "block" in DAOC that stops background copies of DAOC from receiving keystrokes. When you press those keys and send them to the bot, Mojo is allowing you to send "through" that block.

Last time I checked (quite a few years ago) there were only two multiboxing programs on the planet that could do this with DAOC: HotkeyNet and ISBoxer. HotkeyNet did it okay with 1, 2, 3, and 4 but if you tried (for example) to send Ctrl-Alt 3 by pressing Ctrl-3 with your fingers, it wouldn't work right because the background toon would see the Alt. HotkeyNet couldn't hide it.

But the biggest problem with HotkeyNet is sending keystrokes while you hold down a key to make the foreground toon move. This interrupts background toons and knocks them off.

HotkeyNet also can't send movement hotkeys.

Finally with Mojo I got all these details working perfectly. This was very difficult. It took about two weeks of fulltime work. I did it for fun just to see if I could do it. A challenge to myself, revisiting something I had written for the first time 13 years earlier (I wrote HotkeyNet in 2005).
Sitruc wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Then if you did a, "hand holding" for us that don't catch on as quickly to watch over and over, video series teaching people how to create scripts for the games they use, that might be something to pay an extra $10 for a series.
I wish I could do this. I agree it would be a good thing. But the number of DAOC players has fallen so low that if my goal is to make money, I don't think it makes sense to put additional work into Mojo. There are other ways I can use my time that would generate a lot more money.

I still may add some features to Mojo anyway but I do that not for money but because it's fun for me. Why it's fun, I have no idea, because I've been a programmer for 36 years and it seems like I should be completely sick of programming by now. But for some reason, occasionally, I feel like adding something to Mojo for fun. But I don't feel the same way about making videos.
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Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:26 am

DaocRath wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:08 pm
First of all... thanks for finally adding an icon lol
Haha you're welcome. :)

Thanks a lot for taking time to tell me your perspective and how you would react to prices. I appreciate it.
DaocRath wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:08 pm
If its about money... have you looked into seeing if EA would be interested in purchasing Mojo to integrate it into DAOC's login?
In 2014 Broadsword contacted me and asked if I would like to work for them to make changes to the game's UI. I don't think it's practical to integrate Mojo into DAOC but if they had hired me, one of the things I could have and would have liked to do is put Mojo-like features directly in DAOC. However after five or six months of emails about working for them it became clear that it will never happen.
DaocRath wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:08 pm
That last paragraph I didnt mean you maybe hurting for money I just meant if you were looking to make money on your program, maybe they would be interested in integrating it into the game software as they keep saying they are always trying to improve the gaming experience for its player base and maybe you can make some big cash on it and not have to deal with any more updates anymore.
I thought your suggestion was fine. :)
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eryn
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by eryn » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:33 am

Hi Rob,

i am very happy that you decided to continue developing Mojo, it is immensely useful and well done!
Honestly i would much rather see it integrated directly into the DAOC launcher. I saw your reply regarding this and i'm terribly sorry that it wouldn't work out, still i should register my "vote" on this idea.

As for payment, I personally would support you gladly with a subscription. Though i would urge you to align the payment options to the DAOC prepaid time periods (1 month, 3, 6) so it would be easier to use for those of us who do not have a running subscription.

Also, just a thought, not sure if it's worth it or even feasible, maybe keep some basic features free (maybe multi-logging?) and ask payment for the others?

Cheers and warm regards,
Erynwen Siabra (of Gaheris)

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:10 am

Hi Erynwen,

Thanks a lot for the kind words. I was also disappointed that I didn't get to modernize and improve the client's interface, fix its bugs, etc. It would have been fun and I think the results would have been great. But it's not going to happen and it's water under the bridge.

I agree about 1-3-6-12 for subscriptions. Everybody else said they'd rather pay a single time but it has occurred to me that I may have to do a sub because I want to have the option to retire from Mojo one day. With most programs, the publisher can sell lifetime licenses and walk away because most programs keep working indefinitely even if the publisher stops working on them. But Mojo is different because it's vulnerable to changes in DAOC. Every time Broadsword patches DAOC, there's a chance Mojo will break and I will have to modify it. If I take money for a one-year sub, I'm committed to updating Mojo for a year and then I'm free to retire. If I take money for a lifetime license, I'm committed to fixing Mojo for as long as DAOC exists.
Also, just a thought, not sure if it's worth it or even feasible, maybe keep some basic features free (maybe multi-logging?) and ask payment for the others?
I've given the program away free for nine years and I think I've run out of willingness to keep doing that. Some of Mojo's users are nice and appreciative and some of them even make voluntary donations. But many of them, when they write to me asking for help, express such a strong sense of self-entitlement and lack of appreciation that I no longer want to play Santa Claus for them.
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Buffsteria
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Buffsteria » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:45 pm

Hi, Rob!
I just came over here to say thanks again for changing my life with Mojo. As I once said, I can't imagine playing without it, especially now that multiboxing is allowed again.

I think making Mojo a paid program is entirely up to you. I just think it would add to the financial burden of multiboxers who already have to pay a huge sum plus tax every month to keep playing a game that might just not even be here tomorrow.

I would pay for Mojo if I had to, there's no question that it would be worth every penny. But that being said, when I started playing, the monthly sub for DAoC was what? $9.99? Now I pay $16.50 per account. I'm actually not wanting to face the facts but it looks like I'm shelling out $99 a month for this game. When I think about that, I start thinking I shouldn't be subbed. But I only really like playing PVE in multiboxing.

So I'm paying $1188 a year for DAoC....wow...I guess I should probably stop.

Rob
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Re: Mojo becoming a paid program?

Post by Rob » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Hello Buffsteria,

Delighted to hear from you! I had no idea you're still playing DAOC. When I look back on the whole 18 years, your posts on VN and Postcount are one of my favorite parts.

I was planning to add license keys, etc., to the next build of Mojo so I could start charging money. But I haven't done it and the old build expired today so I published a new free one that's good for another three months. I have a feeling it's not too likely that I'll ever get around to it. Too much work and too few people still playing the game to make it worthwhile.
So I'm paying $1188 a year for DAoC....wow...I guess I should probably stop.
Probably. :)

When the 10-year trophy came out, I remember calculating that it had cost me about $1800 per account and wondering if that had really been the best possible use of the money. :)
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